My last post was about starting the Say Something In Welsh course. This is just an update on how that's going.

First, the main difference between this and DuoLingo is the sense of community. The DuoLingo forums (if you can call them that) are really only for people asking questions about the lessons themselves, or querying the correct answers to questions within the lessons. The Say Something In Welsh forums have much more spirit about them. People joke with each other, people ask questions, get replies and then go off topic about their experiences of learning Welsh. People share their real world experiences of *using* Welsh and receive encouragement from others for doing so. And, most importantly, the course creators and contributors also join in with all of this. And there's never a hint of condescension, just encouragement. This tone is maintained through the lessons themselves, with one of the later sentences on the very first lesson being "I'm not trying to speak Welsh, I am speaking Welsh" (Dw i ddim yn trio siarad Cymraeg, dw i'n siarad Cymraeg!)

Second, the course takes some getting used to for someone like me who has done a little Welsh before. The pronunciations are a little more colloquial, and words are omitted in the same way that a native speaker might: "Wyt ti'n bwyta" (you are eating) becomes simply "ti'n bwyta", in much the same way as an English speaker might ask simply "You eating?"

Then there's the manner of the course. Everything is very relaxed. You're told "don't worry about this now" when introduced to things like mutations and the long form of the past tense. You're told, "To form the past tense, you only need to know how to say "ness ee". This stumped me, until I realised it was just a colloquial pronunciation of what I know as "Mi wnes i". I'm not sure how well I cope with this casual approach. I **need** to know conjugations, I **need** to know why things are what they are. It's very hard for me to just let go and accept that things are as they are, and it will all become clear later.

But I'm trying. The course clearly works, as plenty of people on the forums are using it, and Iestyn is an excellent teacher. His lessons are well measured, his voice is clear, he's encouraging throughout, and he participates in the forums to answer questions and give advice.

He is clearly passionate about Welsh, and that enthusiasm is infectious.

I originally signed up to the SaySomethingInWelsh forums a few weeks ago when I found it quite by accident while searching for information on the use of "sydd" vs "pwy", and my use of the site didn't go beyond reading some of the forum posts.

Today I decided to start their lessons. Learning with SaySomethingInWelsh is quite unlike DuoLingo. The latter presents you with very short lessons based around short sentences you translate into English, write out in Welsh, or match to pictures. Because of its visual nature, learning the written forms of words is essential to the learning process.

SaySomethingInWelsh is quite different. They actively discourage note taking and base their lessons entirely on listening and repeating the material in a fashion a little similar to a Teach Yourself CD. The idea is that you learn by doing.

Despite having worked up to Level 16 on DuoLingo, I decided to start right at the beginning with the SaySomething course, just in case it offered vocabulary I had not come across on DuoLingo, and so that I got the most out of the course.

So far I'm liking it. It's ideal for having in the car while driving, as one might an audio CD. The only disconcerting thing at the moment is the pronunciation of the speaker, who is a native speaker from the South East. I'm familiar with pronouncing words with "ae" to sound as "eye", whereas he pronounces them more like "ah". Thus "cymraeg" to me sounds like "cum-rye-g" but to him is more "cum-raag". I'm not going to argue with him; he's a native speaker, after all, but it takes some getting used to. I can only assume my pronunciation is either more "standard" or more northern.

Even lesson one brought about some new-ish vocabulary for me, so it's looking like a promising new route for learning, with the added bonus of some forums in which to speak to some like-minded learners.

Sometimes I see people on the DuoLingo forums say that they ultimately want to become fluent in the language they're studying. That strikes me as a lofty ambition.

For someone living in the country of the language they're learning, fluency as a goal makes sense, and in my opinion is probably achievable. Most language learners and teachers agree that the best way to become fluent is to immerse oneself in the language, and the best way to do that is by living in a country where it's spoken.

For someone not living in a country where their language is spoken, fluency must surely be much harder to achieve. Independent study, including reading and watching television programmes in the target language, can increase proficiency (I can't imagine there's such a thing as bad exposure to a language) but ultimately the way to fluency is to hear native speakers. Language, after all, is defined by its use as much as its rules. Language learning with no exposure to its actual use can, however, lead to the sort of hilarity found in the classic English As She Is Spoke.

I think goals need to be achievable and realistic in order to avoid discouragement. It's better to set a low bar, reach it, and then move on to the next target with a sense of acheivement than to reach too high and become discouraged at an apparent lack of success.

My goal with Welsh is definitely not to become fluent. Not at the moment, anyway. I don't think I'd stand a chance without being surrounded by Welsh speakers and using it every day. My aim is simply to be good enough to understand all the Welsh signs when I'm visiting Wales, to be able to conduct a simple transaction in a shop (actually I'm not that far off, if all I want is a coffee!) and to be able to read novels aimed at learners.